ID Patching
This is a different problem that the other discussed herew6pix wrote:If it's tracking properly, you only need 5008. On my Motorola's thats the only TG you put in, and it hears every dispatch. I've noticed that I mode over to ADMIN during a dispatch, and it mirrors 7A. So something is not quite right on the patch or multiselect with the 396. Same applies to some scanners I own, like the old 235.
If you're getting talkgroups that show up with Status Bits (talkgroup IDs not divisible by 16), then something else is going onw6pix wrote:I've seen about 4 396's where the owner has tried both toggles for status bit and it fails to track. I've even updated the firm ware on a few of those for them with no results. Very intrersting you get it working no problem. Do you happen to know what firmware your scanner is using? A couple of these dudes are very frustrated with that. That's why they resorted to all of the status-bit resultant talkgroups... (5008, 5015, ect).
I think the issue with patched talkgroups applies to all trunk tracking scanners (at least Unidens). I believe I've always had to have all of the potentially-patched talkgroups programmed into a system to follow a conversation because the talkgroup that the scanner decodes is dependent upon how the talkgroups were patched by the dispatcher.
For example, I watched an FD dispatch on the City system last night. The sequence of events (as viewed by Trunker) were -
1. Tone out sent over 4688
2. 4688, 5008, 5168 were multi-selected
3. The voice part of the dispatched occurred
On the 396 and 330 (with Status Bit set to Ignore), the dispatch came out only over 4688. Changing to 5008 or 5168 yielded no audio. On the 296 with Status Bit set to Off (which means include the Status Bit), the audio came out over 4695. I tried locking out 4695 to see if the dispatched showed up on 5015 or 5175 (or any other status-bit variation) and saw nothing.
Does your Motorola affiliate with the system?
The patches on all my scanners have always only shown up on ONE of the patched talkgroups on the SD system for as long as I can remember. If Mid-City patches with CityTac3, depending on how the dispatcher patches them, there will only be audio over one of the TGs status bit on, 2256 or 1104. The other(s) will appear to have no traffic.
SDFD Dispatch
Thanks for all the good info on SDFD dispatching. I've been more than a bit confused by the different talkgroups.
Here's info I can add. The SDFD dispatch TG does work both ways, but SDFD protocol is that dispatches only go on it. Units use Admin to talk to dispatch, or the channel they've been dispatched on.
For a while, dispatch was simulcasting on Dispatch and Admin, since the same dispatcher monitors both. What was happening was that they'd be dispatching on the Dispatch TG and a unit would be calling on Admin. That didn't work to well. Now some dispatchers do that and some don't. That's where the different patching comes in. It seems to be a matter of personal preference with the dispatcher, though I'm sure there's a a way they're 'supposed to' do it.
Here's info I can add. The SDFD dispatch TG does work both ways, but SDFD protocol is that dispatches only go on it. Units use Admin to talk to dispatch, or the channel they've been dispatched on.
For a while, dispatch was simulcasting on Dispatch and Admin, since the same dispatcher monitors both. What was happening was that they'd be dispatching on the Dispatch TG and a unit would be calling on Admin. That didn't work to well. Now some dispatchers do that and some don't. That's where the different patching comes in. It seems to be a matter of personal preference with the dispatcher, though I'm sure there's a a way they're 'supposed to' do it.
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dangitdoug
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 12:14 am
Re: Patches
Using Win95, I attempted to enter the TGIDs for SDPD Patches. BRICK WALL!!jkphotog1 wrote:It's official. The 396 does not follow patches, much to my disappointment for a "state of the art scanner". A pursuit I was listening to in the past I lost with that radio, but heard on the BC 250. I have tried ignore and enable status bits, and with the new firmware. I heard it when I switched to the open mode on 1459.
The best way around this is to add all these talkgroup ID's for SDFD Fire Dispatch. Then add plus 3 to all your SDPD dispach talkgroups. You won't miss too much with an older radio that does not follow patches. Also to be used with newer radios that have this design flaw.
FIRE DISPATCH 7A Confirmed TG's
5008
5011
5015
5168
4688
4195
5239
Police
001456 1459 EAST (PATCH)
EASTERN
001616 1619 WEST (PATCH)
WESTERN
001776 1779 CENT (PATCH)
CENTRAL
001936 1939 N EAST (PATCH)
NORTHEASTERN
002096 2099 S EAST (PATCH)
SOUTH EASTERN
002256 2259 M CITY (PATCH)
MID CITY
Types of Motorola Trunking Systems
Types of Systems:
Type I Systems
Motorola Type I Systems refer to the original Motorola systems that were based on Fleets and Subfleets. Each system had a certain number of Fleets assigned, and then each Fleet had a certain number of Subfleets and radio ids. The distribution of Fleets and Subfleets on a Type I system is determined by the system Fleetmap. Motorola Type I systems are not scalable because they limit the amount of IDs any fleet or subfleet can support.
Type II Systems
Motorola Type II systems refer to the the second generation Motorola Trunking systems that replaced Fleets and Subfleets with the concept of talkgroups and individual radio IDs. There are no dependencies on Fleetmaps, therefore there are no limitations to how many radio ids that can participate on a talkgroup. This allows for greater flexibility for the agency.
Hybrid Systems
A Motorola Hybrid system has "blocks" of the system that are Type I Fleets/Subfleets and Type II talkgroups. All radios may be Type II, or the Type I radios might be used exclusively in subfleets while the Type IIs are used exclusively in talkgroups.
Type IIi Systems
Motorola Type IIi Hybrid is a system that has Type I fleets and subfleets, and has Type II radios that are able to use those Type I fleet/subfleets. The common reason that an agency sets up a Type IIi Hybrid system is because they have newer Type II radios that they want to interoperate with older Type I radios, without having to create new Type II talkgroups
Type IIi Hybrid Systems
A mixture of Hybrid and IIi
Flavors of Motorola Trunking Systems:
Type I (Privacy Plus)
The term Privacy Plus refers to a Type I system. Privacy Plus systems are normally older Public Safety systems and SMRs (Specialized Mobile Radio - Businesses who rent out space on trunking systems)
Type II (Smartnet )
The term Smartnet refers to a set of features made available for Public Safety users. This includes better security, emergency signaling, dynamic regrouping, remote radio monitoring, and other features. The following is true of a Type II Smartnet system.
- Up to 28 system channels
- Up to 65535 unique radio ids
- Up to 4000 talkgroups
- APCO 16 Compliant
Smartzone
Smartzone systems are Smartnet Type II systems that are networked together via Microwave or Land-line to provide multi-site wide area communications. Radios affiliate with a particular site, and affiliate with a talkgroup which allows the radio to talk on that talkgroup to other radios on other sites. Many large public safety and state agencies use SmartZone system for wide area communications. The following are the characteristics of a Motorola Smartzone system:
- Up to 28 channels per site
- Up to 65535 unique radio ids
- Up to 48 Sites
- Analog and/or Digital voice
- APCO 16 Compliant
Monitoring a Smartzone system with a Trunktracker is the same process as monitoring any other Smartnet Type II system, except that you can only monitor one site at a time. For you to monitor a specific talkgroup on a Smartzone site, someone's radio must be affiliated to that specific talkgroup. Therefore, if you are monitoring talkgroup "POLICE-NORTH" on a site where no radios have that talkgroup affiliated, then you will not hear any communications on that talkgroup until a radio affiliates to that talkgroup.
Types of Motorola Trunking Systems
Types of Systems:
Type I Systems
Motorola Type I Systems refer to the original Motorola systems that were based on Fleets and Subfleets. Each system had a certain number of Fleets assigned, and then each Fleet had a certain number of Subfleets and radio ids. The distribution of Fleets and Subfleets on a Type I system is determined by the system Fleetmap. Motorola Type I systems are not scalable because they limit the amount of IDs any fleet or subfleet can support.
Type II Systems
Motorola Type II systems refer to the the second generation Motorola Trunking systems that replaced Fleets and Subfleets with the concept of talkgroups and individual radio IDs. There are no dependencies on Fleetmaps, therefore there are no limitations to how many radio ids that can participate on a talkgroup. This allows for greater flexibility for the agency.
Hybrid Systems
A Motorola Hybrid system has "blocks" of the system that are Type I Fleets/Subfleets and Type II talkgroups. All radios may be Type II, or the Type I radios might be used exclusively in subfleets while the Type IIs are used exclusively in talkgroups.
Type IIi Systems
Motorola Type IIi Hybrid is a system that has Type I fleets and subfleets, and has Type II radios that are able to use those Type I fleet/subfleets. The common reason that an agency sets up a Type IIi Hybrid system is because they have newer Type II radios that they want to interoperate with older Type I radios, without having to create new Type II talkgroups
Type IIi Hybrid Systems
A mixture of Hybrid and IIi
Flavors of Motorola Trunking Systems:
Type I (Privacy Plus)
The term Privacy Plus refers to a Type I system. Privacy Plus systems are normally older Public Safety systems and SMRs (Specialized Mobile Radio - Businesses who rent out space on trunking systems)
Type II (Smartnet )
The term Smartnet refers to a set of features made available for Public Safety users. This includes better security, emergency signaling, dynamic regrouping, remote radio monitoring, and other features. The following is true of a Type II Smartnet system.
- Up to 28 system channels
- Up to 65535 unique radio ids
- Up to 4000 talkgroups
- APCO 16 Compliant
Smartzone
Smartzone systems are Smartnet Type II systems that are networked together via Microwave or Land-line to provide multi-site wide area communications. Radios affiliate with a particular site, and affiliate with a talkgroup which allows the radio to talk on that talkgroup to other radios on other sites. Many large public safety and state agencies use SmartZone system for wide area communications. The following are the characteristics of a Motorola Smartzone system:
- Up to 28 channels per site
- Up to 65535 unique radio ids
- Up to 48 Sites
- Analog and/or Digital voice
- APCO 16 Compliant
Monitoring a Smartzone system with a Trunktracker is the same process as monitoring any other Smartnet Type II system, except that you can only monitor one site at a time. For you to monitor a specific talkgroup on a Smartzone site, someone's radio must be affiliated to that specific talkgroup. Therefore, if you are monitoring talkgroup "POLICE-NORTH" on a site where no radios have that talkgroup affiliated, then you will not hear any communications on that talkgroup until a radio affiliates to that talkgroup
Smartzone OmniLink
Smartzone OmniLink provides a broad range of robust system features and utilizes a distributed call processing architecture which links up to four multi-site Smartzone™ systems together into one seamless network, supporting up to 192 sites.
Typical users of Smartzone OmniLink systems include organizations who have vast geographic requirements -- such as Electric and Gas Companies, and extremely Large Public Safety agencies.
Simulcast
The term simulcast refers to the process of setting up multiple repeaters to transmit exactly the same communications on the same frequency. Many agencies setup Simulcast systems to increase coverage of their single site Motorola system. 1 Site Controller....multiple transmitters.
Smartzone OmniLink
Smartzone OmniLink provides a broad range of robust system features and utilizes a distributed call processing architecture which links up to four multi-site Smartzone™ systems together into one seamless network, supporting up to 192 sites.
Typical users of Smartzone OmniLink systems include organizations who have vast geographic requirements -- such as Electric and Gas Companies, and extremely Large Public Safety agencies.
Simulcast
The term simulcast refers to the process of setting up multiple repeaters to transmit exactly the same communications on the same frequency. Many agencies setup Simulcast systems to increase coverage of their single site Motorola system. 1 Site Controller....multiple transmitters.
Type II Special Status Bits
Type II Smartnet systems use these status bits for special transmissions such as Emergency, Patches, DES/DVP scrambled transmissions, and Multiselects on Motorola Trunking systems. Motorola Trunking radios directly interpret them for their special functions, thus no difference is noticed by the person with the radio. The Trunktracker scanners however interpret these special talkgroup status bits as different talkgroups entirely. Below is the conversion chart for these special status bits.
TTID + #
Usage
ID+0
Normal Talkgroup
ID+1
All Talkgroup
ID+2
Emergency
ID+3
talkgroup patch to another
ID+4
Emergency Patch
ID+5
Emergency multi-group
ID+6
Not assigned
ID+7
Multi-select (initiated by dispatcher)
ID+8
DES Encryption talkgroup
ID+9
DES All Talkgroup
ID+10
DES Emergency
ID+11
DES Talkgroup patch
ID+12
DES Emergency Patch
ID+13
DES Emergency multi-group
ID+14
Not assigned
ID+15
Multi-select DES TG
Therefore, if a user was transmitting a multi-select call on talkgroup 1808, the trunktracker would actually receive those transmissions on 1815. Some common uses of these status bits are as follows:
- When a user hits their emergency button, all conversations on the talkgroup revert to the Emergency status talkgroup (ID+2) until the dispatch clears the emergency status. Therefore, if someone hit their emergency button and their radio was on talkgroup 16, all communications would switch to talkgroup 18.
- A lot of Fire and EMS departments dispatch tone-outs and alarms as Multi-select communications (ID+7). Therefore, if your fire department dispatch talkgroup is 1616, and they do dispatch tone-outs and alarms as Multi-selects, then those communications will be on talkgroup 1623.
This can be a problem, because you will miss communications if you don't have those talkgroups programmed. By setting the Type II block you are monitoring with a fleetmap of S-1 (Mot Size A), you'll essentially get Type I subfleets for each Type II talkgroup - encompassing all of the status bits into one subfleet.
Apologies to whatever website I ripped this info from.
jkphotog1
Attempted to enter them manually (Two-Thumb OS) ANOTHER BRICK WALL!! This method identified them as duplicates for the regular TGIDs.
I have not had any trouble following patch TGIDs, but I wanted to see if the Pro95 would accept them. No Go.
Just a little info for others.
Merry Christmas all. Be Safe.
Doug K
Let me simpify how it works for patching on Motorola systems and some history for those who care....
Back in the day (7-8+ years ago at least) the San Diego City trunked system used an older patching format to announce broadcasts over multiple talkgroups (Freqs to them since it's carry-over from the VHF days). When they did so they used one freq per talkgroup. This enabled non-SmartNet radios to follow broadcasts. Basic radios without SmartNet don't know how to interpret the +3 or +7 of a patch. They also had such an out of date setup but considering they were one of the forerunners (circa 1992) for 800MHz Motorola trunking it's understandable. They've since updated their infrastructure and configuration. Some of you may remember the fiasco with the Saber SIs when they first got them (ahhh, the days of reading news on the CIA BBS).
Nowadays when a Multiselect or Patch is chosen by a dispatcher the control channel starts to announce new information that remaps talkgroups to what's called a supergroup. The supergroup is the talkgroup the broadcast comes out over and is the TG+3 or +7. In order to interpret this information a radio needs to have the SmartNet or better package. But, it's the background data on the control channel that instructs radios on included patched to switch over if their talkgroup in involved in the patch. If the same console always initiates the patch the supergroup won't change. As you've seen they often use different consoles to initiate the patches (and can be seen on RCS too because of their floor of 50,000 consoles).
Patches are always constant and allow for two-way communication from either side. Multiselects are temporary for the duration of the call by a dispatcher only; no talkback.
EDACS trunking works in a similar fashion. Instead of using a talkgroup from the included ones another virtual (or alias) talkgroup is created. This TG id is created as needed and is subject to change. The system determines the number but it either starts at the beginning or end of the valid range of talkgroups. Again, this instruction all happens over the control channel.
With Motorola systems when you patch a conventional channel to a talkgroup you can do it in two ways, which generally can be noticed if you pay attention and have keen ears. If the patch is done by a console the TG will +3 yet have no attached members (you need Trunker, etc to see that). In this configuration a donor radio's audio and transmit paths are wired up at the dispatch center's equipment room. This way any console has access; it's no longer a radio it's just an in/out audio path. The alternative to this is to use a dedicated trunked base radio (An XTL or ASpectra) and hardwire a connection to a conventional radio (or trunked; this is what UCSD does for access to SDPD). Most often a hardwired patch can't be controlled by a dispatcher. If their radio techs are keen enough they'll wire in a relay that a console can activate to shut the connection down if needed. Hardwired patches are unknown to the trunked system so nothing happens over the control channel.
Uniden is currently working on improving patching for Motorola systems. An update should be out within the next few months. I believe it is specific to the 396 though.
Ok, well maybe that wasn't a simplified version!
-OSW
Back in the day (7-8+ years ago at least) the San Diego City trunked system used an older patching format to announce broadcasts over multiple talkgroups (Freqs to them since it's carry-over from the VHF days). When they did so they used one freq per talkgroup. This enabled non-SmartNet radios to follow broadcasts. Basic radios without SmartNet don't know how to interpret the +3 or +7 of a patch. They also had such an out of date setup but considering they were one of the forerunners (circa 1992) for 800MHz Motorola trunking it's understandable. They've since updated their infrastructure and configuration. Some of you may remember the fiasco with the Saber SIs when they first got them (ahhh, the days of reading news on the CIA BBS).
Nowadays when a Multiselect or Patch is chosen by a dispatcher the control channel starts to announce new information that remaps talkgroups to what's called a supergroup. The supergroup is the talkgroup the broadcast comes out over and is the TG+3 or +7. In order to interpret this information a radio needs to have the SmartNet or better package. But, it's the background data on the control channel that instructs radios on included patched to switch over if their talkgroup in involved in the patch. If the same console always initiates the patch the supergroup won't change. As you've seen they often use different consoles to initiate the patches (and can be seen on RCS too because of their floor of 50,000 consoles).
Patches are always constant and allow for two-way communication from either side. Multiselects are temporary for the duration of the call by a dispatcher only; no talkback.
EDACS trunking works in a similar fashion. Instead of using a talkgroup from the included ones another virtual (or alias) talkgroup is created. This TG id is created as needed and is subject to change. The system determines the number but it either starts at the beginning or end of the valid range of talkgroups. Again, this instruction all happens over the control channel.
With Motorola systems when you patch a conventional channel to a talkgroup you can do it in two ways, which generally can be noticed if you pay attention and have keen ears. If the patch is done by a console the TG will +3 yet have no attached members (you need Trunker, etc to see that). In this configuration a donor radio's audio and transmit paths are wired up at the dispatch center's equipment room. This way any console has access; it's no longer a radio it's just an in/out audio path. The alternative to this is to use a dedicated trunked base radio (An XTL or ASpectra) and hardwire a connection to a conventional radio (or trunked; this is what UCSD does for access to SDPD). Most often a hardwired patch can't be controlled by a dispatcher. If their radio techs are keen enough they'll wire in a relay that a console can activate to shut the connection down if needed. Hardwired patches are unknown to the trunked system so nothing happens over the control channel.
Uniden is currently working on improving patching for Motorola systems. An update should be out within the next few months. I believe it is specific to the 396 though.
Ok, well maybe that wasn't a simplified version!
-OSW